Cache Location Issues -Businesses and Police

This forum area will be used to suggest NWOGEO suggested guidelines for geocaching.

Moderator: Steering Committee

RustyNail09
Frequent Poster (200 - 499 posts)
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun 2008-11-30, 00:00:00
Contact:

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby RustyNail09 » Thu 2009-02-26, 17:30:43

My listing was updated to explain that it was placed with permission and that the employees know what's going on if they see someone out there.
Image
Image

User avatar
GeoFlint13
Mega Poster (500 - 999 posts)
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat 2009-01-24, 00:00:00

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby GeoFlint13 » Thu 2009-02-26, 20:30:04

cheechgang wrote:IMHO geocaching was never meant to become a spectator sport.

It is one thing to be required to exercise stealth in an area where people are expected to frequent and in engaging in activities that are normal, such as sitting on a park bench or using a phone booth and reaching around. The intent of this type of stealth is usually to maintain the integrity and security of the container itself.

It is quite another to have to try to hide your activities in a place that arouses suspicion by you simply being there engaged in your search. Is there really a legitimate reason to be lifting a light-post shroud in a parking lot or poking around in the bushes in front of a business?


DITTO!
I can't say that I enjoy doing stop-and-goes quite as much as I do other caches, but I still do them and get some enjoyment from them...as long as they are away from and out of plain view of muggles and busy areas. Recent caches that have me rubbed raw are the latest stop-and-go's that were 'hidden' in Napoleon by a pair of 'geocachers' from Colorado. Chapstick tubes covered in camo tape and then duct taped to trees! That is just uncalled for. If you can't come up with a better hide than that, then why bother? Even covered with camo tape, they still stick out like sore thumbs. I can not believe that a couple of geocahers that each have around 2000 finds would hide a cache in such a manner. Yes I did find and sign each one of them. I found then just for the heck of it, for the number and I wanted to see first hand how bad they actually were. If the owners read my logs, then I'm sure that they know that I didn't enjoy their caches or methods. I heard that one is already missing because the 'container' must have come off of the duct tape holding it in place. I didn't use any stealth what so ever when I was finding these caches either because I figured the sooner they disappeared, the better. Goodbye and good riddance to bad caches.
Good Luck & Happy Hunting!

User avatar
GeoFlint13
Mega Poster (500 - 999 posts)
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat 2009-01-24, 00:00:00

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby GeoFlint13 » Thu 2009-02-26, 20:31:27

RustyNail09 wrote:My listing was updated to explain that it was placed with permission and that the employees know what's going on if they see someone out there.


That's cool. 8)
Good Luck & Happy Hunting!

cachergirl27
Super Level Poster (1k - 1999 posts)
Posts: 1525
Joined: Thu 2008-05-08, 00:00:00
Contact:

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby cachergirl27 » Thu 2009-02-26, 20:47:01

There's a guy in Piqua who considers a "container" a plastic baggie with a log jammed between the wooden post of the guardrail & the guardrail on the side of a state route. I refuse to find any more of his hides, even if they are regulars. There's no excuse for that kind of stuff. Or a nano that's just laying along side of a sidewalk on a bikepath? Really?

User avatar
GrizzFlyer
Frequent Poster (200 - 499 posts)
Posts: 367
Joined: Wed 2003-04-30, 00:00:00
Location: Monclova Township, Ohio

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby GrizzFlyer » Fri 2009-02-27, 02:27:19

A lot of good responses here, many have already stated the same thoughts as I had. There are a couple of other things to consider. The cache that was recently blown up at a WalMart had the managers permission to be there. Somebody saw the cacher in the bushes at the edge of the parking lot and called the cops. They came out and blew it up. Whether or not it was the appropriate response, it happened nonetheless. It won't take too many of these incidents, and you can expect new and stringent guidelines published. The moral of the story is, sometimes it doesn't matter if the manager gave permission or not.

I wonder how many of us got the cops called on us, and we never found out? Doesn't take long to do a LPC, sign it, and beat feet. And those security cameras are everywhere now.

Without citing specific poor cache locations, we all know (or should know), what one is. Sort of like the old duck adage, "if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck". Holds true for poorly chosen cache locations.
Geocaching.com Charter Member
NWOGEO Charter Member

Image

User avatar
Mighty_Mo
Obsessed Lvl Poster (3k+ posts)
Posts: 5148
Joined: Sun 2008-04-06, 00:00:00
Location: Monclova Ohio
Contact:

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby Mighty_Mo » Fri 2009-02-27, 04:43:08

Today, I was out in Sylvania and decided to look for a poorly placed micro that has several DNFs. I pulled up to the lamp post at 1:30p. I waited 5 minutes and there was never a time that there weren't cars waiting at the light or coming up to the light. I expected the cache to not be there. Needless to say I don't know if the cache was replaced yet or not. I decided to to a cemetery cache instead.

I was STF on the one 3Olivos met the TWP cop on at about 10:00pm. The employees in the busisness were very uneasy.

I agree that blowing caches is kind of reductions but we can't ignore that it happened several times and will in all probability continue as long as caching activities look suspicious. Let's face it there are three elements that go into the suspicious actions. First is the cache placement second is the cacher that is hunting the cache and third is the difficulty / time spent searching (increased visibility time) for the cache. If we don't hunt these poorly placed caches their occurance rate may reduce.

The bottom line is, as Grizz stated, hang on kiddies it's gonna get rough.
Image

User avatar
cheechgang
Obsessed Lvl Poster (3k+ posts)
Posts: 5690
Joined: Fri 2004-03-26, 00:00:00
Location: Monclova Township, OH

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby cheechgang » Fri 2009-02-27, 16:30:22

I've been stopped by cops twice. I know others that have been questioned three times or more. Regardless of your innocence it is definitely not fun. I got into this hobby for the fun, not for the stress that comes with a LEO inquiry.

I realize there is always the possibility of a law enforcement encounter regardless of how high the quality of the hide location, but why increase the odds by placing them in such overly suspicious locations?

I still think it is time to consider rewriting and prominently displaying some "suggested" guidance regarding what makes a quality hide. No intention to be a "cache kop", but simply some ideas for those who are interested.
Image
Proud to be
Streak, GeoArt, Power Trail, and Lab Cache free

RustyNail09
Frequent Poster (200 - 499 posts)
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun 2008-11-30, 00:00:00
Contact:

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby RustyNail09 » Fri 2009-02-27, 18:15:53

I do agree, a generalized "suggested"cache placement guideline would be nice for newcomers that have problems with deciding on container size and suggested placement areas.

I also have "Almost" had a few run-ins with the men in blue while searching in areas mainly for micro's hidden in very public wide open places. the most recent being "Get More" GCW8NZ and the one before that being "Erie St. Micro" GC13TKZ. both of them I had police spin around and spotlight the area I was in after I had left.

so yes, a suggested cache placement guideline would be great, and use the guideline to "earn" the NWGEO seal on their site.
Image
Image

User avatar
GoodDog
Super Level Poster (1k - 1999 posts)
Posts: 1892
Joined: Wed 2003-04-30, 00:00:00
Location: Grand Rapids, Ohio

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby GoodDog » Fri 2009-02-27, 21:31:41

RustyNail09 wrote:.......

so yes, a suggested cache placement guideline would be great, and use the guideline to "earn" the NWGEO seal on their site.


Not a bad idea. You couldn't police it, but ask that the logo only be displayed if the cache meets the minimum guide lines.

User avatar
cheechgang
Obsessed Lvl Poster (3k+ posts)
Posts: 5690
Joined: Fri 2004-03-26, 00:00:00
Location: Monclova Township, OH

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby cheechgang » Fri 2009-02-27, 21:38:30

GoodDog wrote:
RustyNail09 wrote:.......

so yes, a suggested cache placement guideline would be great, and use the guideline to "earn" the NWGEO seal on their site.


Not a bad idea. You couldn't police it, but ask that the logo only be displayed if the cache meets the minimum guide lines.


Oops, I use the logo all the time. I'd better go back and check my cache placements. I know one that quacks like a duck and will need to be junked soon.
Image
Proud to be
Streak, GeoArt, Power Trail, and Lab Cache free

BarnacleBear
Frequent Poster (200 - 499 posts)
Posts: 216
Joined: Wed 2004-02-25, 00:00:00
Location: On The Great North Coast

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby BarnacleBear » Fri 2009-02-27, 21:51:56

It will only be a matter of time before a local municipality decides that they do not need to put up with geocaching. When this happens we will only have ourselves to blame. It’s interesting when one of our geofriends is stopped by the police inquiring about suspicious activity. The flip side of this is that every LEO has to keep and activity log to justify the fact that he is not always eating donuts.

Eventually geocaching will become noticed, like a nail sticking up. When this happens do you think TPTB will fund a study on The Benefits of Geocaching? Or, will they take the easy way and ban that geowhat-ever-it-is in the name of public safety? We will get hammered. Getting unhammered won’t be difficult. It will be impossible.

What makes us think that a privately owned parking area is any different than a privately owned home? Would anyone really believe that all the guardrails and skirtlifters have placement permission from the owners? If you owned a business and maintained a parking area would you want geocachers on your property? Frankly, I would not.

Skirtlifting is an inherently suspicious activity. Not only to the property owner, but more importantly, to his customers who pay the bills with their purchases, and let’s not forget our friends in law enforcement. (Yes, there are exceptions but those exceptions are not causing a problem.)

My stand is simple. Geocaching needs to keep a low profile. I will not hunt micros that involve skirtlifters or guardrails. I’ve seen enough of both and do not wish to be seen at either. These types go on my Ignore List.

User avatar
GrizzFlyer
Frequent Poster (200 - 499 posts)
Posts: 367
Joined: Wed 2003-04-30, 00:00:00
Location: Monclova Township, Ohio

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby GrizzFlyer » Fri 2009-02-27, 23:47:50

Looks like we might have a consensus that a guideline be developed, and posted on our website. It won't be the final absolute say on the matter, but it will assist those who are interested in developing a quality cache.

I fully agree with Barnacle Bear's above posting regarding getting hammered. Let's try a bit of pro-active self-policing before the pendulum swings the wrong way and pins us against the wall.

Hmmm, I might disagree (just a little bit) about all guardrail caches being bad. There are some good ones out there that don't attract attention. The one TeamMina just put out in Florida was nice and doesn't attract unwanted attention, I enjoyed doing it. Then there's that evil guardrail cache just outside VanWert... :twisted:
Geocaching.com Charter Member
NWOGEO Charter Member

Image

User avatar
T-Hunter
Super Level Poster (1k - 1999 posts)
Posts: 1438
Joined: Thu 2007-04-12, 00:00:00
Location: Paulding' Ohio
Contact:

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby T-Hunter » Sat 2009-02-28, 01:23:16

Hopefully the cachers around Ft. Wayne will have someone point this topic out to them as well. I think it is more of a problem over that direction more than in the Toledo area. I have been very exposed many times and have had several people watching me until I left before I was questioned by authorities. I too have a couple guardrail caches and a couple skirt lifters but think that I placed them using the thinking of (would I feel comfortable doing this one).
Image

If you aren't FTF, you're last to find.

User avatar
GizmoGuy411
Uber Level Poster (2k - 2999 posts)
Posts: 2085
Joined: Sat 2003-05-03, 00:00:00
Location: Midwest U.S.A
Contact:

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby GizmoGuy411 » Sat 2009-02-28, 03:51:27

I am in Atlanta, and hunted a couple of urban caches today that probably could have got me arrested for trespassing, if not for several other charges if anyone noticed what I was doing.

I agree with BB that we need to keep a low profile, and not JUST with guard rail and shirt lifters. If we are not careful, the only caches that will be legal may be victuals!

Yes we should post something on our site like our SQ. On the technical side, we can make it work exactly the same way. All I need to do is duplicate the method we used to create the SQ area.

Hyrnckr wrote the initial SQ notice. I've modified it a couple of times since, implemented it as a menu item, and made it available as HTML.

I do not feel comfortable however tackling this for the issue at hand, and this leads me to a list of things to consider.

What do we call the "seal"? We are not actually approving any caches. We will only be providing the "seal" as a statement by the cache owner that he/she is adhering to the guidelines.

The text we provide for the cache pages with the "seal" should be short, concise, and easy to read. However we should present it here in a more detailed manner to elaborate on the text.

I do think that Good Dog's guideline, combined with suggestions made here should be the starting point of how we compose it.

Any takers? Once created, it is much easier for us to refine it.
Image

User avatar
GeoFlint13
Mega Poster (500 - 999 posts)
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat 2009-01-24, 00:00:00

Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby GeoFlint13 » Sat 2009-02-28, 05:57:12

I enjoy the guard rail and light pole skirt caches as long as they are placed using common sense. T-Hunter's C.A.D. series in Defiance is great and is a perfect example of smartly placed urban caches! Most are placed so you can pull up right beside them and your vehicle blocks any view of what you are doing. You can park right beside them, grab the cache, sit in your vehicle and sign the log, rehide the cache and drive away, all in about a minute and a half.

I whole-heartedly agree that we (all geocachers in general) are going to cut our own throats with doing urban caches if we aren't careful. If we don't do sensible hides, I can foresee geocaching.com requiring cache owners to submit a signed permission form from the corporate office (not just a manager) of a business, prior to being able to hide a cache anywhere on that business' property or outlawing them all together.

Because of this issue and topic discussion, I have been pondering the way that a couple of my own hides are hidden here in Defiance. Something about them will probably be changing sometime in the next week or two.

When hiding a cache I employ the following methods:
1. USE COMMON SENSE.
2. E-mail or phone a friend. Anytime I have had questions and concerns or wanted suggestions, ideas and feedback about a cache hide idea, I have e-mailed TeamMina and/or T-Hunter. It never hurts to bounce ideas off of someone else and get feedback and suggestions from their point of view. I have tweaked many of my hides because of their suggestions and feedback. I also welcome any feedback, concerns, suggestion or complaints that any geocachers have about my caches. I don't want anyone out there finding my caches and being PO'd at me because they think that it's a crappy cache. If I am receiving negative feedback on a cache then I am going to either address the issue or archive it. There is no sense in me having caches out there that geocachers have a problem with and don't enjoy.
3. USE COMMON SENSE!
Good Luck & Happy Hunting!


Return to “Geocaching Guidelines”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest