Cache Location Issues -Businesses and Police

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TheBearclaws
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Cache Location Issues -Businesses and Police

Postby TheBearclaws » Wed 2009-02-25, 23:53:56

I've been involved more than once with law enforcement and the last time I was advised to pass on a warning message to fellow geocachers to be very careful what we are doing. As a result, I'm pretty uncomfortable hunting caches in view of businesses these days. Does anyone else share this feeling?
Last edited by TheBearclaws on Sat 2009-02-28, 19:13:04, edited 1 time in total.
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cheechgang
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby cheechgang » Wed 2009-02-25, 23:57:37

I always get a sinking feeling when I pull up to a cache site and see that it is directly in view of employees or customers of one or more nearby businesses.

"Hey Bertha, did you see that guy out there? He just put something under that thingy under that lamp post. That can't be good, we'd better call the cops".
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McCombRef
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby McCombRef » Thu 2009-02-26, 01:22:44

I have been to too many lamp post skirts that was on the pole next to the building or right by the main driveway entrance. Then the cache owner says to be discrete...How? 45 cars drive by a minute.

Here is a novel idea, pick the pole in the corner, the one nobody goes near.

Its called common sense.
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby OnDHunt » Thu 2009-02-26, 02:56:30

I would agree, and there seems to be more and more of these coming out lately. I feel very uncomfortable lifting a lamp post skirt right in front of businesses and customers. I do not care how creative you are with your stealth, you look like you are up to no good.

Interestingly, I was reviewing the GC guidelines for hiding a cache for a cache I am contemplating, and I ran across an interesting couple of lines.

They are and I quote, "Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types
For all physical caches and waypoints, think carefully about how your container and the actions of geocachers will be perceived by the public. For example, a cache hidden in full view of office or apartment building windows exposes a geocacher to being seen by someone who may think the cache search looks suspicious."

These are the words from the very guidelines we all agree to "have read and understand" when we click one of the two little boxes before we report a new cache for review. I think this applies to the situation we are discussing. I think these caches go against the basic GC guidelines. After finding these lines, I reread the entire guidelines. I think it is worth it for all of us to reread these guidelines!
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby TeamMina » Thu 2009-02-26, 03:00:11

There's just not something right when you have to hide from a woman loading her kid in the minivan watching whatever she thinks you're doing at the lamppost at WalMart. We have never been big fans of urban caching, since for the most part it's out in the open in front of businesses and people. You can get big numbers quickly, but it's not worth the crappy little containers posing as true geocaches, and the jangled nerves of avoiding a square mile of possible muggles at each one. Yikes!

If you want to see this type of caching gone crazy, search Bristol TN.
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby RustyNail09 » Thu 2009-02-26, 04:36:18

As someone that has one in front of the business that I run, I had placed it in an area that can be in view of employees/customers, but all my employees are trained on what they are looking for and what is to be expected by a cacher searching.

If they are properly placed, no one should be alarmed with it being there if proper permission is given and employees are informed. My employees have also been explained how-to handle a customer that might have questions.
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby GoodDog » Thu 2009-02-26, 05:47:48

I too have a problem with all the micro's on lamp posts, guardrails etc. This is a growing problem that was totally predictable. New people want to hide something, and just aren't taking the time to think it through. In my opinion you shouldn't even hide anything until you have found at least a 100 caches. You just need that time to see how things are done. Of course if you only hunt that type of cache, you won't learn much.

I don't have a problem with micros per se, (unless they are in the woods where a regular cache could have been hid), it's just the ones being discussed here.

Maybe we should post some guidelines or something on the web page for new cachers. I wrote something years ago about hiding your first cache. It's floating around somewhere in the nether. Maybe that could be treated as "open source" material and updated by someone(s).

I have one skirt lifter that I will probably archive so I won't seem hypocritical. I just need to try to preserve the location somehow if I can.

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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby McCombRef » Thu 2009-02-26, 05:58:25

RustyNail09 wrote:As someone that has one in front of the business that I run, I had placed it in an area that can be in view of employees/customers, but all my employees are trained on what they are looking for and what is to be expected by a cacher searching.

If they are properly placed, no one should be alarmed with it being there if proper permission is given and employees are informed. My employees have also been explained how-to handle a customer that might have questions.


Its great that your employees know it is there. although, I have no idea where this place is, I assume that my actions may cause panic.

If you want to see a good skirt lifter, Thunter has one at the Meijers store in Defiance. It is off to the side in a low traffic area and not in front of windows of neighboring buildings.
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby cachergirl27 » Thu 2009-02-26, 12:23:37

All of my urban micros are in places that wouldn't cause anyone to look twice. I do have one at Kroger's in P'burg that's going to be archived b/c it is pretty open and the container has been muggled a couple of times. I'll find a better place for it. I used to love the cache-n-dashes, but now I like the challenge of finding a better place. And let's face it, what's the fun in having to dodge cops, muggles & CARS while trying to grab a matchstick container? Seems a bit ridiculous.

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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby TheBearclaws » Thu 2009-02-26, 12:34:35

I've been reading around, actually looking for the original posting of what Good Dog wrote 4 years ago. I haven't found that yet but here's a link to a thread from this forum from 2 years ago.

February 22, 2007

I'm glad to see that this post is getting some responses, thanks.
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby Stumpy75 » Thu 2009-02-26, 13:20:31

GoodDog's guidelines

Here's what GoodDog wrote quite a while ago, and I have to believe that they all still apply today.

I, too, am having major reservations about doing the skirt lifters in plain view of everyone. When and how can you be stealthy on these? Late night, early morning runs still draw the attention of the local patrol. Mid-day, as already mentioned, you now have 100s of muggles.

I know in the past, I have grabbed a clipboard and a hardhat to try to get these, with the idea that by being so obvious, you would be ignored. But now, with the heightened security everywhere, I'm not even sure that would work.

Read GDs guidelines... What he wrote several years ago still applies today. Lot's of good stuff in there!

OnDHunt wrote: I think these caches go against the basic GC guidelines. After finding these lines, I reread the entire guidelines. I think it is worth it for all of us to reread these guidelines!


And HERE are the GC.com guidelines.


I also have a skirt lifter cache. It's back and away from where anyone would see you, and it brings people to a park that you would never know was there. If I could have found a spot for a box, I would have, but in this case, there was nothing available. There ARE other reasons for using micros too(ala GDs one?).

So it's just not micros or skirt lifters that are bad per se, but probably any cache that is so exposes the hunters as to arouse suspicion.
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cheechgang
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby cheechgang » Thu 2009-02-26, 15:27:06

IMHO geocaching was never meant to become a spectator sport.

It is one thing to be required to exercise stealth in an area where people are expected to frequent and in engaging in activities that are normal, such as sitting on a park bench or using a phone booth and reaching around. The intent of this type of stealth is usually to maintain the integrity and security of the container itself.

It is quite another to have to try to hide your activities in a place that arouses suspicion by you simply being there engaged in your search. Is there really a legitimate reason to be lifting a light-post shroud in a parking lot or poking around in the bushes in front of a business?

I know that discussions regarding size/location/and type of hides will go on ad finitum. Everybody has their likes and dislikes. I am not interested in getting in a long diatribe about why a guardrail micro is less worthy than an ammo can at the end of a long scenic hike, or the merits of puzzle caches or virtuals or multis or earthcaches. Each has its place.

But I am very concerned about the recent spate of hides in full view of businesses or residence picture windows. This has been exacerbated by the increase in law enforcement encounters both nationally and locally. I would just wish that hiders would give a little thought to the locations they select. I repeat that I am very uncomfortable seeking such hides and will be rethinking a couple of mine that may have not been fully thought out.

I wonder if it is time to ressurect Good Dog's "How to Hide a Cache" treatise melded with the latest from GC.com as well as input from other experienced hiders someplace prominently on this site where it can be referred to for new (and experienced) hiders.

Is that a sentence?
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Stumpy75
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby Stumpy75 » Thu 2009-02-26, 16:32:57

Cheechgang wrote:I wonder if it is time to ressurect Good Dog's "How to Hide a Cache" treatise melded with the latest from GC.com as well as input from other experienced hiders someplace prominently on this site where it can be referred to for new (and experienced) hiders.


I think it's time...

And I'm not sure about the sentence! :D
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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby OnDHunt » Thu 2009-02-26, 16:40:36

cheechgang wrote:Is there really a legitimate reason to be lifting a light-post shroud in a parking lot or poking around in the bushes in front of a business?



No there is no legitimate reason to be lifting a skirt (aka in Cheech speak "shroud") of a lamp post. Have you ever really looked under one? The only thing under there is the bolts that hold the lamp post onto the base. Unless you have a really big wrench and you planning on removing the lamp post, you have no reason to be lifting a skirt.

I know no one would do this intentionally, but the only reason to put one under a lamp post skirt in plain view of businesses is to put cachers in risk of getting caught. That is not my kind of excitement. Look what happened to 3Olivos at the Panera. The presence of that cache scared a bunch of kids getting off work to the point that they called the cops on them. Luckily, it was a geocaching township cop that showed up. It is not fair to the employees, or to the cacher.

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Re: Cache Location Issues

Postby OnDHunt » Thu 2009-02-26, 16:48:23

RustyNail09 wrote:As someone that has one in front of the business that I run, I had placed it in an area that can be in view of employees/customers, but all my employees are trained on what they are looking for and what is to be expected by a cacher searching.

If they are properly placed, no one should be alarmed with it being there if proper permission is given and employees are informed. My employees have also been explained how-to handle a customer that might have questions.


My name is on that log, and I do not have any problem with it. I actually would say I liked it. Before I went to find it, I did notice some pictures on the cache page that appeared to have been taken from inside the "Toledo Original", so I assumed it was placed with permission. You may want to note on the cache page that it is placed with permission. That would serve two purposes. One, it would put cachers at ease that they are allowed to be there. Two it would serve as an example of how to correctly do an urban cache.


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